What happens in any given day in any of our lives and especially with the urgency of the work that we do. There is not often time it feels to just take a second and allow our bodies and our brains and our nervous systems to reset. So, I invite you to just take a breath in and feel the air fill up your lungs and then let that breath leave your body through your nose or your mouth. And you can keep doing that as much as you would like as we continue talking. But just wanted to build in that moment to pause. I'll tell you a little bit about me. I am unapologetic in my love for data. I have been doing research and evaluation work for about 25 years which is almost my whole career working in and around schools and nonprofit organizations. I come to this work as a psychologist and an educator. I've worked as an internal evaluation person for several organizations where I built evaluation strategy and plan created data management systems, wrote reports for various audiences. In my consulting practice now, I work next to organizations. I support nonprofits in their use of data and really helping them use data in service of learning and to be able to tell the story of their work. I also teach at William James College in the department of organizational and leadership psychology. I teach in a graduate certificate program for teachers about transformative mental health in schools. Originally, I am from the Bronx. This is a picture of my parents’ kitchen counter where there are always a ridiculous number of bread products and sweet bread products in particular and I carry that with me in my life for sure. I am the parent to two teenagers which makes me take a deep breath every time I say it because it is intense work and I love them dearly. And when I am not doing all of those things, I love to take pictures of clouds, particularly at the ocean. So, that's a little bit about me. I would love to know a little bit about you and we're going to try something. This is…let me see if I can get it to go back. A poll, instant poll sourcing. So, it seems that the QR code has disappeared, but oh, there it is. You can scan this QR code with your phone or on your browser, you can go to menty.com and put this number in. And I'm just going to ask you three brief questions so that we have a sense of the room here. So, the first question is how do you feel about evaluation? You could put in up to three words, I think. What comes to mind? Valuable. Can be creative. Underutilized. Dread. Anxious. Lots of work. Excited. Intimidated. Necessary. Love this. Important. Curious. Valuable. So, a lot of emotions, a lot of feelings, and a real range, which is so much a part of this work that we do. When we talk about evaluation, and a lot of times we're going to talk about this, we don't talk about the feeling part, and I think that really gets in the way. So, just to say that all the feelings are welcome and part of the process that we're going to talk about is how do you actually acknowledge that as opposed to keep it in the background. All right, next question. How involved are you personally in your evaluations your organization's evaluation work? There's a range of ways how much it touches people's lives in their own work. So curious in this room how much you are involved in your organization's evaluation. So, it looks like half of you are a large amount, which I find either means you are an evaluation person or more likely in a small organization many people are holding many parts of the process. So, skewing towards more involvement in this Zoom room than less, which is great. So, I welcome you in your position, in your role when we're talking about things to think about, how that plays out for the work you personally do related to your organization's evaluation. Last question. Which of these six statements shows up as a challenge to evaluation where you work? You can choose as many as apply to you, but some common challenges that come up in the work that I have found. Curious how they show up in your organization. Which of these statements shows up in your work? Great. So, they all do, which is also totally why they're here. I find these are the most common challenges I hear. You know, and it seems like the biggest ones in this group is it often feels like extra work rather than part of the work. Several of you asked questions about that in your registration. Thank you to all of you who submitted questions. We're going to talk about that. How do you make it not feel like it's extra? It does take a lot of time and resources. Evaluation often isn't thought of in advance as needing the time and resources. So, we're going to talk about that. We don't know how to capture what we do. A lot of organizations really struggle to figure out how to show the impact of the work that they having they're having. They know that they're having an impact, but they don't know how to show it. We'll talk about that today. And this worry that the results will reflect poorly on us. It's really normal and natural to feel nervous about what the data might say. And again, for me, that's really part of the process of doing evaluation work. So, thank you for sharing all of that. It's great to hear. We're going to talk about specifically today how evaluation can be different, how those challenges that we just discussed can be addressed and we can in implement practices in our organizations and in our evaluation that really helps evaluation be fun and creative and equitable for everyone involved. And that most importantly to me evaluation is a way to promote a culture of inquiry across the organization. Evaluation is a process that helps us better understand the work we're doing so we can describe it, so we can know it, and it helps us be more informed about what we want to do next. Because we have more information, we can make a more informed decision. And then the evaluation process helps us through those understandings better tell the story of the impact we're having in our communities. Right? So internally and externally we use the information that we learn in an evaluation process to be able to talk about our work and explain its importance to everybody involved. So today we're going to talk about six ways, six things you can do to shift the evaluation practice in your work and in your organizations to help it be more of a culture, a learning process to help it be more positive and for people to think of it less as a bad word. As we go through each of these six, again, thank you to those of you who asked questions. I'll try to point out which of your questions are addressed in each of these areas and I'll pause after each one so we can take a question or two in the moment and then we'll have some time for questions at the end as well as we go through each of these. Again, many of you said you were very involved in your organization's evaluation. So, think about how your role specifically can be in each of these spaces, like what's something you could do in your role to help with this part of the practice. Okay. So, the first one I've already said to you and foreshadowed for you, but it is tend to the process. Oftentimes, people think of evaluation as the thing we do at the end. Oh no, it's time to report to our funders. Let's get some data. We need to think about it as a whole process that includes a lot of change. And we know that in change processes, there's a lot of emotion and there's a lot of feeling. It is totally normal for people to feel anxious, defensive, judged, worried, prideful. Even for people like me who really love evaluation and really believe in its power to be this wonderful learning process, it feels nervous and anxiety producing sometimes and that is part of it and we need to just acknowledge that and normalize it. So, in every conversation that's had about evaluation or evaluation processes or results, it really helps to just name the fact that there are emotions involved. It also really helps to be able to slow things down. Often times evaluation is something that's done at the end and in a hurry and people have a hard time with that and it that contributes to the stress. So, the more that the process can be slowed down, planned out from advance, people can anticipate what's coming, the more it helps reduce the stress that people feel around it, which helps them with things like buy in, which many of you asked questions about. People also asked about where is a good place to start. Starting with the process is a great place to start. If you're just starting to think about how to do some more evaluation work, start having some conversations about that. It's really helpful to anticipate that there will be some resistance no matter what it looks like or how it shows up. A lot of you asked questions about getting people to fill out forms and surveys and how to have staff be able to do things when they're doing so many other things and anticipating that that is a form of resistance. It's some friction in your process. So, if you can anticipate where those places will be in advance, again, you can help soothe them and guide them and ease them in some ways. They're not insurmountable. they just need some extra support. And then finally, keeping the focus really on learning. What is it that we can see here? What are some strengths that we're noticing? Starting from a place of appreciation and appreciative inquiry. That that's a process that some of you might find useful. but to really help keep the focus of the data and of the evaluation on how will now that we know this, now that we've gathered this information, we've made some sense of it, we're starting to have a more clear picture, how can this help us do something differently, more of or better next time? Dora, I'll pause there if there are questions from the chat that you want to call out now. I don't see any questions. But anybody in the audience have anything right now? You may not have posted question about this one before I move on to the next one. All right, I'll move on to the next one. You let me know, okay. Okay, number two, make it a team effort. I find that in smaller organizations there is not one evaluation person, and that means that it already is a team effort. But often it is not viewed that way, and so lots of people are holding lots of pieces, but there's not always a lot of coordination of those components happening and so it's very easy for things to fall between the cracks or for people to be doing the same thing, which is contributes to people's feelings of evaluation being a burden because there's so many pieces that need to be held. So, it's really helpful to be really transparent about figuring out who are the people who are doing things related to evaluation activities. Who is the one who's going to create the survey in Google forms? Who's the one who creates the QR code to share it with your audiences? Who's the one who's going to project the QR code, and so on, right? So, knowing all of the different players in the mix helps be really clear about what evaluation consists of. There's actually a lot of things that have to happen and they sit almost always within lots of different people's jobs. So, bring those people together on a regular basis. Talk about the project management of the evaluation. Think about who has information that somebody else might benefit from and have a conversation that is focused on the evaluation components as its own thing. That is really, really helpful in moving pieces forward. It also really helps for people to feel like evaluation more broadly for the organization is a team effort. So, bringing in multiple perspectives as early on in the process as you can and that's also to say like wherever you are in the process. It's never too late to do these things and to bring people in so that you have an understanding of well what are, what is the staff experience of having to complete these forms and paperwork components as part of their programmatic and operational process. Right? Talk to the people who are the ones managing the data or the IT and thinking about where things are going to sit because evaluation is really intertwined with so many other parts of organizations that it's helpful to know kind of where the touch points are and where the pain points might be for all of those different people. When you're talking about working with young people, then there's a whole other layer that comes in about, you know, all the rules and regulations around working with young people. So, think about that, talk about that and involve a lot of people in those conversations. There were a couple of questions about people's skill sets and which are the positions within organizations that are best suited for evaluations. And you know, I think that really varies, depending on how organizations are organized and where different and the size of the organization and where people sit. But it's often helpful to have leadership, somebody at the leadership level involved, somebody in the development, communications, marketing world. You always want to make sure the program people, the operations people are involved in those conversations and thinking about what is it that each of you need. What is the skill set that you have and that you bring to this area and the background that you can bring in terms of project coordination, some data analysis skills, and thinking about how to present that information. This can also be there were a couple questions again about where do we start if we don't know where to start. This can be a great place to start is figuring out who the team is and having some conversations about all of the different components and pieces that they bring into the mix as well. I'll pause there again if there are any questions before we move on. I see a hand but I can't see everybody. Sarah, hi. I was just wondering when you were speaking about it being a team effort, would you also include constituents? So, people that your nonprofit is supporting? Absolutely. Absolutely. And having multiple perspectives from the people that you are working on behalf of is really, really important as well when thinking about designing an evaluation, when thinking about the outcomes that you might be looking for, when thinking about how the information gathering process goes. There are a few research methods that are really about bringing the people who are most impacted by the work to the center of research process and thinking about how you can incorporate that from the beginning as well. So yes, thank you for the question. All right, I'll move us forward and then. We'll keep circling back. So, the third thing the third practice or area of practice is to right size your approach. Sometimes I hear organizations worried about how to conduct like a scientifically rigorous randomized control group study because that is the best way to prove that you are having an impact. And the thing that I think is most important in thinking about evaluation is doing what you can with what you have right now. And thinking about your size, your budget, your staff capacity, your organizational capacity at any moment to try something new or take something new on because you want to start small and close in so that you have early successes. And I don't mean successes in terms of what you find in your evaluation. I mean you want to have some evaluation successes as an organization that will help you build and strengthen and grow your evaluation practice. So, you can't accomplish everything and you won't be able to achieve even your most long-term aspirational goals right away. Starting with what's closest in is thinking about what are your most proximal outcomes? What are the things that you have the most control over in the work that you do given the things that you have control over? And start by measuring those and expand out from there as you think about what other capabilities and possibilities you have for growing your evaluation practice. You want to be realistic again and feasible in the goals that you set given again your organizational size, your organizational capacity and thinking about what it is that you might be able to do given all of the things that you have on your plate. You also want to be realistic and feasible when you think about things like response rates. Somebody asked a question about what's a sample size, like what's the right sample size to be looking for? And that really depends on your organization and what it is you're looking for. You might do a workshop that reaches a thousand people. You might do a small group that reaches six. Your sample size for each of those would be really different. But you want to think about how am I going to know? How will I feel like I have enough information that's going to help me make a decision based on who this group is and the information that I am looking for? A lot of times people have a tendency or a feel a pressure to collect lots and lots and lots and lots of data and we have most places have access to a lot of information. That's great. And the quality of that data is way more important than how much you have. So, you want to be really judicious in your data collection. Think about how many surveys is the right number of surveys so that people will actually respond to us. How many questions is the right number of questions so that people will actually fill out the whole survey and we'll have some data that we can use. And that factors into all kinds of things like how you're recruiting for your evaluation, how you're sending out information about surveys, how if you're communicating with them in person or over email. And you want to try to get as much complete, clear, clean, consistent data as you can more than you want to gather lots and lots of people's responses to many questions that then you have to weed through. So, it's worth thinking in advance about the things that you most really want to know and only ask about those. You think about what are some - what are three to five numbers that we would hold up at the end of all of this and really just focus in on that and plan it out from the beginning so that you don't have to weed through it at the end. And then aligning timelines and expectations is about again this thinking about evaluation as a process that happens over a period of time and being really, really thoughtful in the planning of it so that you can align your calendars. You can align when activities are happening with when surveys are being distributed with when focus groups might be happening with when you need to do something at the end of the year or gather from another group. And you can think about your programmatic touch points, how evaluation weaves in and around those. What are some operational dates that might be important? A lot of the programs that organizations I work with are youth serving, family serving, and often flow on a school year calendar. And so, there's all kinds of things and intricacies to a school year calendar when there are buckets of time that are better or worse for communicating with people. And it's really, really helpful to think about that in advance. Similarly with expectations for your organization and for the staff involved in the evaluation activities, if you're doing - if you're hosting a big event and you are thinking about doing some end of the year surveying with people, how can you how can you spread those things out as much as possible so that the same people aren't being inundated with really big timeline specific tasks all at the same time? There is a question from Jen Jay, Jen, I don't know if you're able to ask the question yourself, if you are able to unmute or use your video, if not I will read your question, all right. Kind of two parts. Evaluations are now posed as “conversations” in quotes. However, it still feels high pressure to me. There are little to no mid check ins to ensure the employee is meeting or on track as this industry standard. And then the follow on is please offer ideas for not meeting goals when there are multiple staff and external partners when your outcome is partly based on them without complaining or blaming external factors. Yeah. Yeah, that's - thank you for the question. I'm going to talk some about that in one of the points coming up about keeping the communication flowing. So, I think one of the pieces is sharing data regularly helps keep it in the conversation so it's less of a surprise to people when goals may not be met. And so, thinking about that and thinking about how to have that conversation in advance I think is super helpful. And we'll definitely talk more about that. Thank you, Dora. All right, I'll keep us moving with that in mind. And number four is expand your definition of data. And I mean this in a few different ways. One of the biggest things people always want to talk about in evaluation is qualitative and quantitative. And I think one, there were a couple of questions about how to use anecdotal data. You know how do we blend in our stories? The important thing about qualitative and quantitative information is that they are both really important and helpful and you want to find ways to gather and use both. They do different things. So qualitative data is people's words and experiences and they will tell you the story of how you as an organization changed their life. what the changes in their own life they see happening, right? And that is super powerful and you want to find ways to gather that from individuals. You can also gather that from individuals in writing. It doesn't always have to be in conversation. Quantitative data is about numbers and trends and being able to look across large groups of people and be able to identify some themes that come through in numbers. Also, really important and really powerful. So, finding ways to do both is the most important thing. It's also really important when thinking about expanding your definition of data to start with what you already have. Most organizations already have a ton of data, and it lives in lots of different places when use when doing any kind of human service kind of activity. There's a ton of information that lives in an intake form, in any kind of clinical paperwork, in any kind of documentation of any kind of service. There's a lot of data in there, attendance, registration, meeting notes. So, think first about well, what is it that we're already doing and what is it that that might be able to help us already understand? Because there's a lot of learning that can happen just from that. And one thing that you might learn from that is you have lots of paperwork in place and nobody's actually filling it out. In which case, that's a great place to start again and think about, well, what is it that we're asking? Why are we asking this information? How can we help people understand that? The last way that I'll say to expand your definition of data is to look to others in the field. There is way too much pressure in my mind for the organizations feel to produce their own data about everything. There's a lot of data and research that exists out there that's publicly available that's been published on in any variety of publications, and you can use that to further your cause. Right? There is research that says something about the group of people who you work with, the region in which you work, the current trends in your issue area and that is helpful to you. You can use that as a benchmark. You can use that as a way to show need. You can use that as a way to compare and contrast or look over time. So, think about that as a way to think more broadly about your definition of data. And I just wanted to note there was a question too about - in the registrations - about how to measure well-being and thinking about you know what is an expansive way to look at well-being. I would say thinking about in any human service or youth providing type of service delivery, thinking about resilience, thinking about relationships, thinking about the coping strategies that people bring to bear can be a really helpful way to show positive growth without necessarily showing a specific behavioral outcome. Dora, any questions or should I … Yeah, we do actually quite a few. Let me just see if any… Kelyn, are you able to - do you want to ask a question yourself? If not, I will go ahead and read it. Sure, I can ask it. Oh, great. Yeah, my question is just if you have any suggestions or recommendations of how to approach kind of like a convoluted and complicated evaluation relationship in an organization, particularly the organization that has like close to a 100 programs that all need continuous evaluation and data collection to show impact, both like within the cohort which varies in length depending on the program and longitudinally. And we struggle with survey fatigue for sure because that's kind of the go-to. And there's also various expectations from different stakeholders on like what needs to be collected. And so that, you know, costs time, it costs resources and ultimately ends up in people not feeling great about evaluation. And it's yeah, it's just complicated. So, I know that's kind of a very vague question, but if you have any suggestions, I would love to hear it. Sure. Thanks for the question. It is a very common situation that there are many data collection efforts that all feel like they're for one specific program or strand. And that is super common and leads to people feeling badly about evaluation because it just feels like it's so much to do all of the time. So, I hear that. I think I would say that's a place where trying to - it's going to require some shift in how people are thinking about the data that is being gathered and trying I would say to have some sense of a collectiveness about that. So, I work with an organization that similarly has multiple programs, and we are in the process of designing one survey that would go to any participant in any service and then each service could add on its own questions. So that there's a core set where we're saying we all care about this because even though our programs might be doing different things, we're part of the same organization and therefore we all share these things. And then there are specific things related to each one that can be gathered additionally. And again having I think the more programs that get involved and the more kind of evaluation activity streams, the more the project management component becomes super important because that can really reduce the burden if it's laid out clearly so that everybody knows who, what, when, and where for each step of the process, it just it relieves a lot of the frenzy that I think can happen which adds to people's negative feeling. So, thanks for that question. I think it'll come up again. I'm going to move us to the next one, but I think this is one that is relevant as well, which is to keep communication flowing. Oftentimes, again, evaluation communication kind of goes one way, like send out this survey, respond to this survey, tell us this information, fill out this form. But it doesn't come back the other way, which contributes to people feeling really badly about evaluation, too. Like, I filled out that survey and you never told me what it did or I told them to do the survey, but I don't know if they ever did it. So, share the data back early and often, internally and externally. It helps build that culture of inquiry and questioning. We are learning. We are growing. We want to know. Thank you for telling us. This is what we learned from you, this is what we're doing about it. Keep that conversation happening and internally build it into existing structure. So, team meetings, supervision meetings, board meetings, executive leadership team meetings, all of those can have conversations about what's the what did we learn, what did we see in this data that we just collected. We said we were going to do this survey, how many people responded, how did it go, what do we see in the data, what do we want to do next? that helps build the buy-in. It helps people understand why you're collecting this information. And it helps people feel more connected to the work. And then you want to start using that data in your materials more than if you already do, that's great. Keep it going. And if you don't, bring it into your conversations again internally and externally. There were questions around how to communicate about impact, how to support internal and external storytelling, and how to convince people to invest the time. And I think that the more that the data is being used in the everyday context of the organization, the more it becomes inherently valuable. So again, use data that explains this is why we do what we do. This percentage of people in this region are experiencing food insecurity. It is our goal to provide this amount of food to this many people in this specific specified period of time and then how did it go? Did you who were the people? What did they think about it? Is there still a need for more? Keep that conversation going. And it builds a practice that people then become more familiar with and comfortable with, which again helps people feel less nervous and bad because it's part of it's part of the habit. There are a couple of other questions. Just want to - Kavita, do you want to ask your question? I'll read it. Are there any tools you recommend to analyze large amounts of qualitative data? And then there's another one from Sandra, but let's go with Kavita's first. There are a lot of tools out there. It depends how kind of rigorous you want to be and methodical in your process. I - depending on - I like to read it. I mean, I just I really personally like to read it, kind of one by one. Sometimes I still use colored pencils or some kind of markup system. There are qualitative data analysis software packages. Some have free licenses and some you have to purchase. I know a lot of people think that that's a great thing to use AI for. It is very sloppy, and you have to be really careful. I'm sure there are ways to get it to be more efficient and effective as there are in any field. But in my experience, it has misquoted people. It has been misrepresentative of the information, and it hasn't really been good at executing codes that I developed. So, I would say as with everything, just caution there. I'm going to use that as a springboard to our next one because systems and strengthening systems for the long term is really a huge part of thinking about evaluation. So, I'll jump to the third one first, which is thinking about your data and information management tools. Again, evaluation like can really be deeply connected in ways that aren't always recognizable until you start looking at the kind of technical components of different systems. And so, it is common that information lives in lots of different systems and figuring out again who are the point people, what are the right times and ways to get that information out. How might these systems need to be tweaked or adjusted or reconfigured? May we want to invest in trying to find a new system? Those are all real questions and they all come with like real costs both financial and time. So, just being mindful of that and thinking about it and thinking about when the right time to make some of those moves helps improve the longevity. I think I've said many, many times in many ways throughout this conversation about advanced planning, but the kind of technicalities and the operational components of evaluation, making time to think those things out in advance really helps make the process flow. And then you're building the system because if you know what your calendar is going to look like for this year, then next year you'll be able to roll that forward. And it really is the first round through is really helping set the foundation as you move forward. We've talked a lot about embedding into everyday routines. And then there were questions about how to fund evaluations. And I think that that's a place where I have been increasingly wanting to see funders step up into that space because evaluation, as we've said, takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of resources. And that is people time and it needs to be part of the process of asking for funding for projects that there's evaluation. It's assumed that there is evaluation funding built into that. And I think that's a way also to think about it, kind of for the long term, is recognizing that there is a cost both in existing people's time and potentially in adding people's time or purchasing measures if you want to use standardized published measures. There are there are real costs associated with that, and so to build that in as you're doing your planning as well. I'll pause there for a question too. Sandra, do you want to ask your question? Yes. Um, if there are like organizations, how helpful is it to benchmark? If there are like organizations, you mean similar to the work that you're doing? Yes. And benchmark, you mean compare yourself to them? Yes. Yeah so I think you know I think it is useful for you to do it internally I think it is useful to know how and where you compare to the other organizations in on your landscape and I think there's lots of ways to think about that benchmarking you know sometimes organizations are the first or the biggest or the smallest or the only one focusing on this particular group so figuring out what your differentiation is I think is really helpful. And then if there are things that you know about - I work with some mentoring organizations, for example, and they often benchmark against other organizations to say the average mentoring relationship lasts three months and ours lasts a year and a half. So, I think again sort of to know yourself better, it is very helpful to know how you kind of - how you would compare yourself and then think about which of those you want to incorporate into your internal and external storytelling. Great. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for the question. So, my last takeaways and then we'll pause for a few more questions. I have some resources to share with you too. But all throughout. encompassed through everything we're saying. there's sort of three takeaways that I want to leave you with. One is in all evaluation practices, it is so, so, so important to be ethical and inclusive. And that means thinking about the language that you're using, both terminology and language related to nationality, nations. Making sure that your materials are accessible for people. If you're working with populations that don't have access to technology, being mindful of that. Making sure that you're using culturally responsive methods. Making sure that you're asking people for consent, that you're protecting their privacy and their confidentiality. All of those things are built into research ethics, and I think they don't always come through into evaluation. And it's really important to be mindful when you're asking people to share information about themselves, about how they're feeling, about how they've experienced something that you take good care of that and thank them for it. They don't have to do it. And that's important too. They don't have to do it. Also, for you as organizations, especially small organizations, I just I know how much pressure there is to show your impact all the time. It's a lot that is put on you and it's unfair. It's okay to ask for help in that process. I really believe it's okay to ask funders to think with you about how to make some of this work to seek out peers and colleagues when you have questions. There are lots of - I'm going to share some resources with you about evaluation. There's a lot of consultants out there who can help in light lift ways. You don't have to do it all alone. It's really, really hard and there's lots of ways that you can get some support in that process. And then finally, evaluation is a journey. It is not a destination. There is no end. That's the good end. Bad news, but keep going. There's a lot to learn all the way through the process even when it feels like things aren't going the way you want them to. That is a learning part as well and it's important, keep investing in it, keep doing it. It does become more ingrained in everything that you do. And it's just so important so that more people know about the really important work that you're doing to make your communities, our communities, and our world a better place. So, thank you so much for your work. There are some resources and you'll get these slides. They're all hyperlinked, but these are some resources that I find are useful, practical, speak to the real needs of nonprofits that are put out by some local and national organizations. I hope that you will find them helpful. Please share them. I'd love to hear from you if I can be of support to you and your team. This is what I do. And I would love to hear more about the work that you're doing. That being said, I'll actually stop sharing my screen. We can take a few more questions. But I also do offer to people who come to these workshops a one follow up I call them strategy sessions where you can come, and we'll talk about whatever is of interest to you and your organizations. I have some slots in December if you're interested. It's first come first serve, but I'd love to hear more about the work that you're doing. Thank you for coming today. I'm happy to answer a couple more questions in the time that we have. There aren't any more questions. I'm just going to give a plug for our speaker next month is David Orinoff and he's continuing on the thing for organizational wellness. It's going to be a nonprofit wellness checkup where the focus will be on healthy finances and thriving mission. So, mark your calendars. It's December 9th. And other than that, if there are any questions, we'll wrap up. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here everyone. Thanks Luba.